For some girls, living past puberty has historically been the way to live as a boy. “Bacha posh”, which in Dari means “girl dressed as a boy”, is an ancient tradition that predates the Taliban in which a family designates a girl to live as a boy. This can either give him the boy’s freedoms – such as education, athletics and the right to be outside alone – or may impose on him the boy’s duties, such as working.
CNN asked Nordberg what might happen next for girls in Afghanistan, including Posh.
This conversation has been lightly edited and condensed for clarity.
CNN: What was the condition of girls in Afghanistan before the United States invasion in 2001?
Jenny Nordberg: Most of them did not go to school. They were illiterate. Some were secret girls’ schools, which originally had a temporary study group. Women or older sisters who had received some education under the Russians would teach their younger sisters or younger children. They used to say that they would teach the Quran, and then they would actually try to teach other things like math or language.
A girl was a weakness for the family as she could not protect the family like a boy. Growing up as a little girl meant you were prepared for only one thing: to marry into another family. And being good marriage material, her functions were very limited. Little girls should not play much. They shouldn’t be outside much. They should definitely not read any book, play any game or speak very loudly. Very gentle, very, very calm, always keep your eyes low. Even the very liberal, educated, progressive parents did not want their girls to be kidnapped by the Taliban or face any danger. It was a way to protect them.
Once a girl starts menstruating, when she can conceive and become pregnant, she becomes married and becomes the property of the husband, not the father. And it could be someone she hasn’t met or someone she’s only met once and has never spoken to.
CNN: How had Americans changed in Afghanistan in 20 years?
Nordberg: A new mostly urban generation has arrived in large city centers such as Kabul, an entire generation who went to school and university. He had big plans for both men and women. They have smartphones. They know what is happening in the rest of the world. These are the same people who were going to take over the state and move the country forward in the vision of a new functioning democracy in Afghanistan.
Americans were trying to develop the most ambitious, most talented, most enthusiastic people to run their country. Which is like a colonial fantasy.
CNN: The Taliban have said they will protect women’s rights “within the limits of Islam”. Does it give you hope?
Nordberg: That statement has no meaning as it would be subject to interpretation. There is zero correlation between what we think are fair rights for women, and what they think are fair rights for women. Violence against women is not a side story. This is the main story. This is part of the recruitment strategy. Women are useful only to have children. And women need to be controlled and kept very, very small, very small.
A woman gets a lot of ideas from the education she gets. Maybe she wants to make some decisions about her body or whether she should have children or whether she should get married. They don’t want anything like that. They want to have complete power over women.
Look at the last few days. Why would people be so desperate to get out if they think the Taliban are a softer version of themselves? Why would women hide in fear of their lives if they felt there was any possibility of some sort of dialogue or dialogue with the Taliban about women’s human rights? Who will stop them, short of another attack? The Taliban have now taken over so rapidly and in a brutal and destructive manner. They have no reason to compromise. Why would they want to compromise on anything?
In my opinion, their credibility for providing really basic human rights to women and girls is nil.
CNN: What will happen to the women who have been educated and promised a better future?
CNN: Who are the kids posh?
Nordberg: Baby posh is a girl who lives as a boy, almost like a third gender. To reach what we consider to be some very basic human rights, a girl can wear a pair of pants and a shirt and cut her hair and move on as a boy. This will widen the scope of their movement. There is no need to keep it indoors. She could play sports. She could escort her mother or work. She will inevitably see more of the world outside the house. And in areas where education is offered only to boys, she can get an education and go to school safely, if it is dangerous for a girl to travel or go to school.
It is an ancient tradition and custom that basically symbolizes a deeply oppressed, isolated society where women and girls are second-class citizens. If girls had rights, there would be no need to pretend to be the more privileged gender. It is a society where boys and men have almost all the rights. In a very different society, there will always be people who try to get to the other side.
CNN: Why do some girls become toddler posh?
Nordberg: This can be done for many reasons. If there is no boy in the family, he is not only considered weak, but really weak, as there will be no one to protect the family and support the old parents. Maybe people find out you have a posh baby instead of an actual son, but it’s still considered better than just daughters. It is viewed favorably by most Afghans.
It may also happen that if the family is poor, you will have a child posh as wages, work for the family business or work outside the home as a shop assistant if the father cannot work. Or bring some money if mom can’t work. is a widow.
It may also be that the parents really want a girl to get an education. If you have two sons and one daughter and then you dress up girls like boys, and you send all three to school.
CNN: Is this liberating for girls who are living as posh toddlers?
Nordberg: depends on. Is it a burden? Is it so that you can work and bring home money for the family? Or is it a privilege where you are provided with education or some freedom or you can ride a bike or travel with your father? It can be either or it can be both. It is psychologically too complicated for every posh person. And it mostly depends on two factors. What caused your baby to be posh, and how long did it last?
CNN: Will it still be allowed under Taliban rule?
Nordberg: It was present in Afghanistan long before the Taliban came to power, and it will exist as long as women have their own human rights. That said, if you want to do certain things there will be a greater need to hide, more of a need to disguise yourself. But it would be even more dangerous to do so, because I believe the Taliban does not approve of it. It was always risky and under strict regime it would be more dangerous. It would be a mockery of the Taliban and their attitude towards women.
CNN: What are our moral obligations to the girls and women of Afghanistan?
Nordberg: I hesitate to even use the term “moral obligation”. Can we talk more about this? In my opinion, we just need to get as many people out as possible. What was done was not enough. Every ambassador, any country that was involved in this failure of a generation, should have issued emergency visas and opened our borders to those we have been in incredible danger from fostering and cultivating and encouraging and educating. have put. These are our people. And now we are part of that country, because they are part of us.
We encouraged these women to get education, get profession, choose their own path, be like us, build our country. And they are the ones who are in extreme danger now. These are journalists, academicians, teachers, university students, artists, politicians. The airlift is now over, but other, more underground efforts will continue
Get them out and get out now because the gate is closing on something that will be a terrible, terrible country for women for many years to come.
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